Episode Summary: Table 21 with Jim Knight
Host Christopher Wells brings dynamic speaker, author, and culture expert Jim Knight to the podcast for a spirited discussion about leadership, culture, and the principles behind building iconic brands. With over two decades at Hard Rock International and now a sought-after speaker across industries, Jim shares invaluable insights into what makes companies thrive.

Jim’s first book, Culture That Rocks, explored building vibrant workplace cultures. Now, Leadership That Rocks dives into the fundamentals of leadership for new and rising managers. Pre-order now on Amazon (releasing May 18).

Jim’s podcast, Thoughts That Rock, co-hosted with Brant Menswar, offers leadership wisdom and engaging conversations. A great starting point is their episode with Steve Cockram, co-founder of Giant Worldwide, for actionable leadership strategies.

Christopher and Jim end the conversation on a high note, emphasizing that great culture and leadership drive not only business success but also employee engagement and satisfaction.

Transcript:

Christopher Wells 0:00

Hi, everyone, welcome to this new episode of table 21. I'm your host, Christopher wells. And I say that pretty much every time I do a table 21 I'm really excited about my guest today, because I pick the guests and I invite them. But today, you know, there's a term called moonshots. It's a take a shot, and you never know if something's gonna happen. I've been following my guests and Jim Knight for probably over 10 years. Looking what he did, he came up with a book about nine years ago called culture that rocks. So I'll let him introduce his background. But I'm very energetic, very, very focused on culture, leadership, and building teams and growing that, and you got that, you know, he did a long career with hard rock International. Now, he's a very respected and renowned speaker worked a lot in the hospitality industry. But if I followed his career, the last few years now works with all kinds of companies across the board, because culture is universal. And those principles don't change. So I decided to send out an invite a couple of months ago. And right away, he said, Yeah, Chris, I'd love to come and do it. Which I was quite astounded at how open and friendly it was. But I think that's a testament to the person he is. And I guess I'll stop talking about him. And I was bringing him in right now. But hey, Jim, how are you? Man?

Jim 1:15

I'm good, man. And thank you so much for the invite. I know you think it's a moonshot. I love doing things like these, mostly because I have a podcast. And sometimes I know, I've got guests that I aspire to go and grab on there. And I'm gonna have you on my show at some point in the future. But honestly, it's cool. And somebody in hospitality, which has been my background, wants me to come and talk in their world again. So as you said, I get a chance to do a lot of things. But you know, when I get the call for food or beverage, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's me. I would love to do that. So thanks, man, I really appreciate you having me on.

Christopher Wells 1:47

Well, thanks for coming. I said, I've been following you for about 10 years looking at what you do, like you know, there's a lot of things about you that obviously the energy level some people and I'm I know that I'm thinking about it, I never didn't think about that. But people find me pretty out there. Like even when I do video, I try to push really hard because I find if I want to capture people's attention, especially like live but especially on video, and now that I'm thinking about it, probably not completely, you know, far from what you do and probably that has inspired some of a lot of stuff I've done in the last 10 years but um, love that vibe, love that energy, obviously trademark air. Everything you do is related to music. I told you before like you got a nice guitar behind you. I got a nice Dave Grohl. That's Wally over here. And a bunch of guitars over there. So obviously was really in line, you know, what you what you brought forth about values and culture, but also the music and all the links to that stuff. I'm curious, obviously, we could talk about your career and we'll talk about a lot of stuff in the next hour. What does it is a mini gym when the hair was shorter when when Jim was small, you know, when you were younger? Like how do you get to hospitality? How do you get to I get I don't even know if you started in training or in service and I guess I should probably know that but I know that you eventually you know you're focused on the training and all that but what breed like is hard rock the first hospitality or is that just the stepping like stepping stone in the career? How do you get there?

Jim 3:13

Yeah, well, first off, my hair didn't always go up. Many Jim used to have hair that went down. I had a long mullet. I could sit on my hair. It's about two and a half feet. That back in the day in the 90s. We all have bullets if we have here. No hardrock wind up being really my last stop in hospitality. So my my very first job was at a play. I live in Central Florida in the States. I actually worked at a real life working alligator farm. It's called Gator land Zoo. So when people think of Orlando I know they think of Walt Disney World and universal but we have something like 25 different theme park sort of venues around here. And one of the lesser known is is Gator land Zoo. And, you know, I used to sell frozen fish to people and they would use that to feed the alligators. I used to drive a little miniature train and some music in the background. That was fun. I worked in the snack bar, where I actually ate alligator meat every single day. But that was probably I guess my first foray into hospitality. My favorite part about that job though, is I worked in the photo area, which is I'm going all the way back in the mid 80s We would use Polaroid cameras, and we would let people hold on to an alligator is only about two two and a half feet but they still had razor sharp teeth. So every morning I would jump into an alligator pit with about 30 of these baby alligators. Close one of their mouths, you know and I had to catch one closer mouth, duct tape them so that you can hold on to it. That was one part. But then I had to jump into a snake pit where all the boa constrictors. Were there. The big ones they don't have any venom, but they still have sharp teeth that we would put us around people's neck and they're huge. They're massive snakes. So we you know, it was like $5.05 US dollars and we would just take that picture and I just I love that job. It was great. And I did that for about Three years. So I really consider that my first jump into hospitality. But I worked at a little restaurant called racks restaurants, and worked on the salad bar there and worked at Olive Garden. It's an Italian themed thing here in the States. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So you know, if you've been here, you probably know that one.

Christopher Wells 5:19

Stick with them the old you can eat a

Jim 5:22

salad and breadsticks. breadsticks. Yeah, you can get all three of that. So I worked, I worked many years in different positions in that thing. But really in between all that, so while I was working at Gator land, you know, I when I was in high school, I just wanted to perform. So you were talking about kind of how you get a little bit jacked up and excited. And that high energy. I've been like that for a long time, mostly because guess of community theater, I always wanted to sing, I'm massively attracted to people who can sing and dance and act and speak and you can talk about anything, you can talk about shoelaces for eight hours, if you're compelling, I'll listen to you. So I always wanted to be on stage a little bit, and I definitely even now will be louder and faster and aggressive, I call it edutainment, you know, you don't want to just get the information, you want it to be fun. So I sort of amped it up a little bit. But I went to school, to college to get a music degree, I thought it was gonna be a rock and roller. And I found that while I was there at university that to make a living doing that you had to be good. So I changed careers. And I became a middle school teacher because I wasn't that great of a singer I was okay, a lot of church and choral and opera sort of style. That's my, that's my voice. Now I can do a wedding or funeral if you need me to Christopher. But I became a middle school teacher, I did that for six years, I really liked that job as well. And then in the summer, we don't make a lot of money. And so I needed to take a summer job. And that's where heartbreak came in. I worked at the Orlando hard rock, this is going back to 1991, which at that time, was the busiest restaurant on the planet. So if you think about this, in hospitality world, I know that you would understand that a lot of people that I'm talking about it, they don't get this concept. But we would pump about 7000 people a day to that restaurant doing $35,000 hours. So when you work in a behemoth, like the hard rock in Orlando, where you're doing 43 $45 million a year, your head gets really big, your skills get really sharp, you can pretty much handle anything, it's the greatest practice field in the world. And I'll tell you, just from starting there, I fell in love with the people and the culture. You know, some of the most interesting humans I'd ever seen on the planet were just sort of flitting about, and I wasn't even sure if it was gonna be for me, I was a little bit conservative, I was a little bit reserved. And I guarantee you, I am not the same person today than I was back then. So it allowed me to come out of my shell. But I stayed brother for 21 years and 18 of those I was in training and development 16 of those actually ring global training and development worldwide. And that's all the hard rock cafes, hotels, casinos, a live music venue. So, you know, it's a little bit of a long and winding road. I know that's a long answer to your question. But honestly, I am now still, I think pulling all three of those levers, music, education and hospitality, I use all three of those in the work that I do now. So, you know, if anybody's listening out there, maybe they're in a job and they're not seeing what the future looks like, or they've got hopes and dreams and maybe the job right now that gig is a stepping stone, I'm telling you, you'll be able to use those skills, it'll come back to play and you'll be able to get to wherever it is, even if you want to work for yourself one day. It is possible. So I've had a great career trajectory, but this is probably the last stop for me. I'm doing exactly what I'm going to do the rest of my life.

Christopher Wells 8:40

Yeah, you've been at it for what 10 years now pretty much

Jim 8:43

years. Yeah, I left hard rock in 2012. So I've been gone from them for nine years. But I was actually speaking on the side for about 10 years before I left. I just never took the money I gave all the money to hard rock they love that because I was a revenue generating you know, department which by the way, training and development people we spend money we never make money. So my boss like that, but you know, it fed the beast in me I didn't care about the money. I just wanted to have a lot of impact and influence and actually that's why I left Chris I just said you know, after 21 years, all of my people were promotable the business was doing great. I was making the biggest bonus checks I'd ever been given but hospitality really wasn't enough for me I wanted to go vertical and get out into other industries which is where the speaking and the writing and the podcast comes into play. So you know, I sort of outgrew what I wanted to do at that brand but I still my heart still there you know Once a Rocker Always a Rocker,

Christopher Wells 9:38

of course. Got to do it right.

Jim 9:40

That's right. Man. I

Christopher Wells 9:41

saw that through little points. I want to I want to grab out of that before we keep going. Yeah, just for people watching. We have a lot of you know, hospitality people watching this or hearing this because now I brought you know, I turned it into an audio podcast everywhere as well. But when you mentioned doing 7000 People $35,000 hours, I just want to be clear for people that are not from the industry. This is not standard. So don't go making a business plan to open up a restaurant, Jim said, busiest restaurant on the planet at that point, you know, a busy restaurant in our market, you know, like some of the busiest I'm in Montreal, right? So when you're doing 1012 mil a year, and you're doing 45 $50,000 days, those are big days, and you're doing, you know, maybe 678 100 guests on a Saturday night. That's big business. So when Jim's talking about 7000 people, like that's insane. That's next level stuff. So don't don't don't build your business plan for your food truck based on that, please. Okay. Yes. The other thing I want to I want to jump on, I find that very interesting, because, you know, I've done a lot of training, consulting, and now obviously, building piecemeal today, but I was telling you off air before we came on, you know, like, I've admired your career and attempted to do some of that stuff doing all that. And you said, used to be a shy, conservative guy. And that's something that hit me because I used to be, and people don't even like my girlfriend of 10 years I have two kids with does not believe me, when I tell her I used to be really shy. And until seven until I was about 17. I mean, I wouldn't want to ask a question in class and have a really dear friend that I actually met in one of those classes. I guess it'd be the equivalent of like college or something like that. But between high school and university, there's a level here called see Jeff, and that buddy of mine, Steph has been around for you know, 2530 years of my life, but I looked at him and I was like, I want to be like that I want to be that comfortable talking in front of people and asking questions. And, and, you know, basically sought him and got close to him and learn from him. And basically came out of, you know, came into my own but I was very much like that, too. So I know a lot of people sometimes they feel like, Oh, I couldn't do what you do, or I couldn't you know, do a podcast or do a video and I tell a lot of people use video and on social people love that. And they buy the people before they buy the product and the company. So it's funny that you feel like you came out, you know, of your shell. And I did too, because a lot of people sometimes don't see themselves being able to do that. Like, for me it was and you don't We don't know each other that mature in me. But I told you a couple of guitars. So I threw myself on the stage and started playing music. Even though I was my one of my best friends said you're not the best, you're charismatic. So I understood that I was musically there'd be like people want to like listening to you. And then I did some, some some pro wrestling for years as to which a lot of people don't know if I mentioned that on a podcast, but I did a lot of stuff where I had to put myself, you know, maybe to the extreme to be able to get comfortable and do that. So just for people out there, it's not because you don't feel like you're like that now that that you can't get there and that you can't do that. So you got to take action, you got to try things right you do.

Jim 12:38

And I you know, just to be clear, I'm not sure I was ever shy, you know, even my high school buddies, when we'd have fun I always wanted to perform, but certainly more reserved, a little bit more conservative. And by the way, you know, speaking is the number one fear of all humans in the world. I mean, more than heights and bugs and snakes and death. Like it, people are scared to death of being in front of other people. So you sort of go I'm in the same boat as everybody else. And although you maybe took a high school speech class, maybe you took in college, a speech class as well. You never really get better at being in front of other people unless you actually do it. So there are some good classes out there. I would just say if that was a goal of yours, if you want to just be better even introducing yourself in front of other people I know that freaks people out. But you can't get better I would just invite yourself to the party, whether you want to stand up at a I don't know alliance club, Kiwanis Club, something downtown with the Chamber of Commerce, you know, say something when you're in your church class, you know, get get some friends where you guys might be talking in a group and volunteer, it's it's a fear factor. But once you start to get better at it, you could if that's what you want it to make it a career or just make yourself better. So listen, people that are freaked out about it, I get it. It's just we're all on the same boat and and I I crave it. Like I need as many people in front of me as possible. Now, I can't imagine not having an audience to talk to you. But that's just because I've built myself into it. It's a skill set.

Christopher Wells 14:08

Probably not been easy to live here for you. Right not having to do it at a distance like that. You probably missed that. I think my biggest audience will for a keynote was probably 500 people and for some kind of a show maybe 1500. But I'm guessing you've talked to 1000s? Like, what's the biggest gig you've done? Speaking?

Jim 14:26

Yeah, I did one for a little bit over 9000 in Las Vegas, you know, and there were three keynote speakers. You, Jay Leno, a lot of people will probably know. And then in our industry, Giada DeLaurentis, who's on the Food Network, and me, and so I was sandwiched in between them. I was in the day to slot and nobody, of course knew who I was. But even the event planners asked me to stay the next day and I actually got to interview Jada on the stage while she was doing a cooking demonstration and that was in front of you know, 9500 people but I've also done some stuff before for four people, I actually remembered that I did something for the National Funeral Directors Association. So funeral directors are actually one of my biggest clients. And so when I do stuff in industries that you wouldn't even think about you'll, you'll look at the hair and the Hard Rock background. And people are like, what is this guy going to talk about when it comes to banking or insurance or whatever? Funeral Directors, right? So I did something for that particular group. It's a huge Association. I bet you there were probably 2000 people in the audience. Some guy came up to me afterwards when I was signing books, and he said, Can you come do exactly what you just did? But for my company? So I said, Yeah, I'll totally do that was in North Carolina. I go up there. And he's got a really small funeral home. And he was so excited to show me around and they had a couple bodies in there and how they were embalming everything and what his sort of area was that people would have conversations, and, you know, the whole thing. And then he said, Let's go through the talk. And he takes me into the employee break room, and there's literally a card table in there with his three employees and him. So it's four people, and he wanted the same video and the same song and dance. I'm just standing there at the end of the table doing my thing, but, you know, I It doesn't matter to me. I mean, I would love the bigger audience because bigger influence, but brother, you know, I just I love it so much. I'm gonna bring the thunder, I don't care how many people are in front of me,

Christopher Wells 16:18

for sure, right? Whether it's like you said four people, OR 4000 or nine, I just I someday, I will keynote Yes, 1000 people, I guarantee you that I wasn't good enough musically to do it and play in front of 10,000. But I'll get it, you know, using using my mouth, but a 1500 1500

Jim 16:33

is nothing to sneeze at. That's great.

Christopher Wells 16:37

That's pretty cool. Yeah, I It's funny, too. I went to give a training out east a couple years ago, Local Business Association says, Oh, you gave that you know, I've given it in a different part of the New Brunswick and said, We want you to come and give it so basically an eight hour day on restaurant management and maximize your profits. So I go in there, and, you know, they fly you in, there's, you know, 20 people coming, it's a decent gig to go and do that. And I'm excited because there's a bunch of different restaurants. And I love that like You're like it's getting I don't going to get questions. And in eight hours, you get a lot of interaction in a workshop like that. And I show up there, and it's this old hotel, and it's like the ugliest, you know, room you've ever seen. And you're like, I'm like, Oh man, I'm gonna like you feel good. Like you got it. You got it. It's a nice gig, you're going to do something good, then you show up there. And that's why I can only imagine for like, somebody is doing a wedding there and being disappointed with the, you know, the old paint than the old drapes on the wall. But in the end, once everybody got in the zone, I completely know what I for 10 minutes, I forgot where we were, it could have been, yeah, the perfect boardroom. But, but it's funny. Sometimes when you walk in, you're like, Oh, this is it. Or I've had a couple of employee rooms like that. We're like, Okay, this might be interesting. This might,

Jim 17:53

I've had them, I've had them they back in 2016 was really my record, I think I was doing a little bit over 95 engagements, which was a crazy time. I've had a couple of those as well. And you were making a great point to this last year, almost every event shut down either went away, a third of them probably just died and went away. A third of them converted to a year later. So my upcoming September, October is super busy. But about a third of them went virtual. And I hadn't done a lot. There was a couple that maybe you were doing it. You know, we all discovered what zoom calls were and you know, stream yard and things like that. So for me, I've done probably way more virtual in the last year than I have in person but they're coming back. I've got an awesome speaker agent and she keeps me busy.

Christopher Wells 18:39

That's amazing. I saw that recently that you're doing I think you joined the new wire I think you were maybe doing it yourself and you joined this new agency. So that's

Jim 18:46

I was doing it myself the first year and then the last seven I've been with a speaker Bureau I was exclusive with Kepler speakers. They're fantastic. They're out of Washington DC but because there wasn't a lot happening and I had an opportunity I've been sort of recording this awesome speaker agent she's really kind of the number one in the US. Her name is Michelle Joyce and very small booty group. She's only got 10 people in her stable and I've always wanted to work with her so it was a it was a marriage made in heaven for for me sliding into that 10 spot so we're going to ride off into the sunset together I think that's amazing.

Christopher Wells 19:17

Um, obviously you you I discovered you because of some of the content now we're talking about you know, our experiences in our life but um, I want people to watch us to get a feel for what I got, you know from from Jim Knight. Nine years ago, you came out with a book called culture that rocks where you wrapped up I think a lot of stuff and you can correct me but I figured you'd have it pretty close by Yeah. And the talks about culture leadership, and I guess I you know how to engage your employees, your team and where you're going. Now you're coming out with leadership that rocks that I also saw probably close to you that I also saw you come bring out of the box recently. Yes, yeah, leave ship that rocks. And I absolutely love that tag it says what take your brand to 211? Or the the the, I guess the old Spinal Tap reference there. But yes, you the new book is basically kind of a revised version, I think, from what I understand. And you can explain to us you're gonna make, you're gonna have two books come out of some of the original content from culture that rocks, but building a culture, engagement employees and all that. And I guess I'll just shut up and let you talk about it. But the original idea to where we're going now to what you're seeing, and I guess, I think worked in different verticals, like you said, the last 10 years, you've seen it in different industries. And now you were like, Okay, it's time for a revised version. And I want to mention leadership that rocks, I should have a copy of my hand, but it's coming out. The only reason I don't, it's coming out May 18. You can pre order it on Amazon already. So So I invite you to go and do that. But But tell us like, you know, culture that rocks takes us to leadership that rocks and some of the ideas behind that.

Jim 20:55

Yeah, that's pretty good. Man. You're ligature, you're already like a publicist, you captured a lot of it in there. I don't think I need to say anything. It's, uh, well, first off this first book, you know, it's a hard cover, it's been out, like you said, for nine years, it's color on the inside, it's kind of a, it's kind of a pain in the butt honestly, to travel with. And, you know, it's also been a little bit older. And so luckily, because I've been speaking now, for nine years, these awesome cultures and brands that I've discovered, some of them did not exist back then. Or I've just fallen madly in love with them. And if I've got a business crush on on a brand, I don't really have a blog, I don't really have a lot of places, I have a podcast now. But I don't have anywhere to really talk about him and shine a spotlight, like I did on some of the other brands. So the fact that it was kind of thick and color and hardcover and expensive. You know, I had a couple friends of mine who said, you know, I think there's like two or three books in here. Like it's dense. There's so much meatiness in there. Very proud of the book, I self published it all. So the entire book I did on my own, which is, in itself a huge feat, but you don't really have massive distribution. So it's either at speaking engagements, that's probably where I made, the majority of my money is speaking gigs. You know, and I sell one every other day on Amazon, it still does something. But I really feel like you're saying if I have a lot of content in this thing, and it's been nine years, I didn't want that to just be my only book. And I honestly thought Christopher, I only had one book me. But what I decided is I'm deconstructing that book into three books, actually. So this first one, if you look in the corner, you'll kind of see it what let me get it there. Where it'll have the number one, it says, that rocks, yep. Take your brand's culture to 11 and amp up results. So the next one that'll come out next year will be service that rocks and that'll have the number two up there. And then the third one will be engagement, that rocks, those are really the main key pillars of what I have in this book, if you want to absolutely rock out and have a fantastic culture, whether you're starting it, or maintaining it, or many cases, completely and totally revolutionising it, it's really about leadership. It's the service mentality, regardless of what the product is. And then ultimately, it's about human behavior. It's about the engagement. And so this one will, you know, these books probably have a lot less hardrock content in it, because there's a lot of hard rock currents, and that is my first one. That's what I was focusing on more than anything else. It had a little bit of autobiographical stuff about me, I've taken a lot of that stuff out. I'm now at the point where I just want to share awesome stories with people so that they can go through it and say, Boy, did I get a lot out of it. And it just made sense for me to start with leadership, since it really starts at the top, that it also gave me a chance to really solidify culture. So I still talk about culture. That's the lane I'm gonna play in. And so there's a million books out there on leadership. I think I just decided, I'm still probably focus on culture. That's what I love more than anything else. I work for one of the greatest cultures in the history of culture, why would I not want to talk about it? And so I think a lot of people would love to be in that top 10 iconic state. So it's about how can I lead to either create, maintain or change if I need to the company culture? That's, that's the main one, and then service and engagement came out two years later.

Christopher Wells 24:15

That's amazing. I want to take it from let's take step one. Yeah. For a lot of people that watch this culture is a given they get they understand what it is. And we all know, because a lot of people do but a lot. Oh, right. So we're piecemeal. We're already working with close to 1000 restaurants so we in that some people understand what it is some people don't take it, take it to do the basic stuff for us, like what is culture and and kind of, how do you a lot of people focus on, you know, rules and how things need to work in the business but they don't necessarily grasp that everything comes from culture and everything grows from there. So give it to us like the one point or the basic.

Jim 24:59

Yeah, So for me, I think culture is quite the buzzword right now people have been talking about the last five or six years. And you know, if you go back 1520, I'm not so sure they were and I was the culture guy, I would run into the CEOs office and sort of throw down the culture card and go, Listen, we should do this, because it'll be cool and fun. And it's awesome. It's the right thing to do. But they would laugh me out of the room, because it wasn't tied to any business results. It wasn't tied to anything strategic. It was just sort of a good field. And if that's what you think culture is, I think a lot of people are missing the mark. And the reason now, I think it's such a big deal is because I've started to see people separate from what I think they think it is, people think it's about the past, it's about the heritage, heritage, one of my favorite words in the world. But that's where people get ensconce. They think, oh, culture is the way it's always been, the way it used to be, the way that I grew up in it, especially if they were internally promoted, they think about the way that the thing got started, regardless of how long the company's been around. And I don't, I don't believe that at all. I think it's a part of it, I think that's a great place to start. I think culture is about the people, it's about the humans, and my ultimate definition, you're looking for the one liner, I think the culture is just a collection of individual humans, that's it. And all of those humans, those people have some pretty unique behaviors, some of those behaviors, you know, are awesome, and some of them not so much. So whoever's working in the company at that moment, that is the company culture. And here's the sort of the example that I would put on the people. Because I guarantee you, you said some early said, forms, or infrastructure or tools or processes or whatever, there is something about that if you started the company, and you've got really awesome infrastructure in place, right. But I've got all of these people who don't fit there, they don't represent the culture very well. They're not following through on the things that we need them to do, you're not going to have a great culture. And in fact, I can tell you for a fact, let's say, I hate everything about the tools and the forms and the handbook and the videos, and I'm going to change the product, and I'm going to move the corporate office, you know, 15 yards away, whatever it is, I change all of that stuff. But I keep the same people, I probably have the same culture, versus let's say, I love all of that. I love the font and the color palette, and the scheme and the tagline, and you name all the stuff, all of that I keep in a place, but I fire all the people and bring in new people. I've completely changed the culture. And so in my mind, every time somebody leaves the company, or joins the company, the thing changed automatically, the culture morphed automatically, maybe it was a little bit, let's say, if you or I, Chris, let's say we started the company. And I don't know, we make it for five weeks. And then we do something silly, they take us out or I leave on my own or whatever, I still made a dent in the culture, even if it was small. But if I'm the guy or girl who started the thing, if I'm the founder, if I'm the entrepreneur, if I'm the franchisee if I'm the chief executive officer, and I leave, and somebody comes in and replaces me, they're going to change things the way that they want to it's massive, monumental change. And so the goal is, and you know, this is true, whenever we go to open up in particular, restaurants, we will spend all of our time and energy and effort and rigor and money getting the opening staff will delay opening for a couple of days, if we don't have the right people, you fast forward three or four years and guess what happens? You know, there's not as much due diligence, we've maybe outsourced it to somebody, you get the you know, you got a finger on the pulse, yep, you're Breathe, breathe on this mirror, you're higher you're going in. That's what happens with companies all the time, they don't put as much time and effort and energy on the culture, you surround yourself with the right people, I guarantee you, you'll have the exact culture that you want to. But it doesn't happen like that people are coming and going. And I know there's a direct correlation between turnover and sales. If I can get people to stay with me longer, you absolutely are going to have better sales, who wants to be constantly, you know, like a hamster on the wheel and you're constantly training, you never get to Nirvana, you never get to the sweet stuff. So, again, another long answer. But I think people confuse what culture is. It's not just about the past and the good old days, it's about who do you have work and in your business, you get that part? Right? you'll crush it, you'll crush

Christopher Wells 29:13

it. I love it. And just to extend on that pretty much the what you're saying also and then correct me I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the people that work for you. That's based on the values that you have, and the decisions that you make of who you're going to hire. Right. And there's a classic thing of, you know, a lot of people don't a lot of times people hire based on experience and I say you should hire based on attitude, right? If the person that goes to what the culture you want to bring in, if they have the right attitude, I can teach them how to serve I can teach them how to cook how to be a hostess how to do whatever it is that we do in our business, but the values and the idea that you have for the kind of company of its like to me I totally agree with you. It has nothing to do with with heritage sometimes the heritage may influence it, but it's not. It's what's happening now. Today, all goes all the way to that saying I tell you know, people, if you're training books as one thing, but the floor lives another thing, the floor will always when you do this this way, but in four weeks, if the floor of the people that your employees on the floor, do it in a different way, that's how the new person is going to want because they want to fit in and they want to do it the other way that people are doing it, they're gonna be like, Oh, no, the, you know, I was totally an orientation, I need to do it that way. So and one little thing I want to add to that is that when you're saying the decisions you make now will affect in five years. I totally love that. Because sometimes people feel like they're just a few degrees off, right? Yeah. And they're like, I'm pretty close. Yeah, now it's good. But what happens if you do that in five years, you're miles apart from where you want it to be or where you should be to be successful. And then that culture is all messed up. And like you say, you're just trying to plug holes, and then it's just a downhill thing where it goes. So culture has to come from the decisions, the values and what we want to put in play what we're about, right like the DNA of what we are so

Jim 30:58

well, and I think the point you were making to I don't want people to think that are listening or watching right now that I don't think heritage is not important. I do I love it. Like I said this one of my favorite words, I think you should love on the culture, you should do some great storytelling, your employee handbook, your storybook should be fantastic. The brand video for the employee should be fantastic, you should have a killer day one orientation, like you should dunk people in the very beginning. So the day two they're going, and I can't wait to get back to work. Like I think you should do all that. It's just you can't live there forever. At some point you got to move on and to your point. It's all about I can train on this anybody. It's the hire for attitude train for skill that you were talking about. There might be a couple people that are not teachable and trainable. But I find those very few. And I used to think I was a pretty good trainer. But one thing I can't help you with, I can't train you to smile, man, I can't train you to have a good personality. either got it or you don't. Which by the way leads to something that you were alluding to as well, I believe that everything is learned behavior, everything, everything you are the way that you are you learned it from somewhere from your parents, from your friends, from the playground, from religion, from lack of religion, maybe from a previous employer. So by the time you come to me as a 2021 year old kid wanting a job somewhere, or depending on what country maybe even earlier to work in a restaurant job, you know, if you can't smile, I can't help you. If you don't have the juice running through your veins have great work ethic. And being able to look people lie and have an attention to detail and a sense of urgency, you're of no use to me, maybe I got a place for you all the way in the back where no one will ever see you. But that's unlikely. You know, I need people who actually have that ability. And so you're kind of leaving towards something right now, which is, it's tough to go find those people, but they're out there. And it just probably happens that they're already working somewhere else. So you can't sit back on your laurels and wait for people to bring in the application or the resume or the CV, you're going to have to go mind for them you want rockstars they're out there somebody else is paying them a little bit more, they're loving on him a little bit more. You're gonna have to do the same thing as a leader.

Christopher Wells 33:04

Totally I, I think I was telling you before we came on. But one question I've been asking a lot of people in the last couple of years is would you work for yourself? Right? Would you want to work for yourself? Think about it. Think about your ACT about how you talk about a talk to people? Do you train them? Do you work with them? Do you want to grow as people and be part of the team? Or is it just your number punching, get a job get get the hell out? Right? Yeah. So that has a lot to do with it. How attractive Are you? And I think culture is what resonates with people about a brand, right? We could give like specific examples of like you said, when you fall in love with a brand and and I don't know some of the brands that you love. But I know a few years ago, I was pretty impressed by hearing about Zappos is you know, their culture. If I think about hospitality, Union Square Hospitality in New York, and Danny Meyer and all of the stuff that he puts forward about hospitality. I'm like, Man, that resonates with me. Right? So there's some of these brands that so even if you're a single restaurant, a single business, you can have that got you know it like some so and so the kids work, you know that their friends work there, and oh, yeah, they love their job, or they hate it. And the boss is an AFL CIO, so that that culture, even in a single business can resonate and make you an attractive employer. And that's one way you can attract people. That's something that's a big pain point right now. Right. But how do you think all this that culture permeates the whole thing into to being an attractive employer?

Jim 34:31

Yeah, well, I mean, now it's even more important. I guess a lot of people were probably attracted to just having a job where they were paying them and you would still look at their track record. And how long have they been around? What was their sales numbers? Yeah, I'm sure people did a little bit of some due diligence, but before there was the internet, you couldn't really seek stuff out. You didn't have places like you know, glass door and TripAdvisor and a whole bunch of places where you could go and see reviews and things like that. The Big Island This guy does not lie, you can pretty much say anything you want to about an organization, you can probably go and find out what employees are saying about those employers. There are places out there where you can really get underneath the grill and find out is that a healthy environment? Or is it toxic, and I need to stay away from it. You know, Zappos you were bringing up is a really good example. I mean, I know that's not in hospitality. But every time I look at a brand Health Study, they're always like, in the top 10 of most loved companies. And you got to remember, these guys, they're an online shoe company, they don't even sell their own shoes, they sell other people's shoes. But people love them, their service mentality is crazy good. I think about in, in the United States up in Washington state we have up in Seattle, Pike Place Market, and a lot of people maybe don't know what that is, but it's a fish market. Basically, it's a big market. But the fish market portion is just absolutely wacky, because somebody just decided to start throwing fish to each other, the employees. Now they let the customers even get back there get all hyped up. And these are not like little fish. These are massive fish that come flying around, sometimes 20 feet, it is awesome. It's the number one tourist destination now in Seattle. Before the very first Starbucks people go there. There's a Space Needle thing people want to go see. But everybody runs down to Pike Place Market. So if you just take Zappos and Pike Place and I go, these are single individual locations, if they can do it if a fishmonger can do it. If an online shoe company can do it, then anybody can do it. But the ones that I love like Wawa and Sheetz here in the US, we've got some great convenience stores, believe it or not convenience stores that I love to go to, I pass six or seven other brands to get to one of these. I love them. I love Chick fil A, there's so many reasons why I love Chick fil A and I will show videos and a lot of my sessions. And again, they might be controversial to some people, but you cannot argue with everything they do for my cleanliness standpoint, their products, how they're so effective and efficient and their drive throughs I've never had a mistake in an order ever. And I'm eating there like two times a week I got a problem. I'm addicted to Chick fil A. So you know, there's, there's so many brands and again, now that I write other books, or I have a podcast, I can talk about these companies that maybe never made it into anything that I've ever done. But you know, me loving on them a little bit more, if that just drives a little bit more sales, it's totally worth it. So, again, I know that the end round of what we're talking about here is this is all predicated on human behavior. You know, we have you guys have value jet, we have Southwest Airlines here low cost, you know, airline provider, I listened to the executives that say listen, we're surprised that nobody has stolen the way that we onboard and offload people, they're still the number one when it comes to departures and arrivals. Nobody beats, they're one of the most efficient and most profitable airlines out there. They're like, I'm surprised they haven't copied our safety announcements, you know, they go down the list and go, you could do all these, but the one thing you won't get as our people, if you can't steal our people, you're never going to be able to copy our culture. And I think that just speaks volumes for these companies that get it. And I think more executives are getting it by the way, like I think there's a light bulb that's been going off the last couple years, and people are going ooh, that might be more important when you focus on culture driven versus strategy based, and I think they're gonna have better results because of it.

Christopher Wells 38:18

But there's a lot of people that put out content like you that are talking about this. And there's more and more of this going out. And I think people are looking for that differentiator. I love the way you're saying like Southwest is such a great example. We hear about them all the time. And you know, in Canada, we're pretty plugged if you speak English, you know, a lot of French people in Quebec, but if you speak English, you're pretty connected to us culture. And yeah, I probably consume more ustv than I do, unfortunately, Canadian TV, but there's one line just to emphasize and really make sure that we hit on that nail in your original book, and correct me. But I think there's a line that says culture eats strategy for breakfast, right?

Jim 38:56

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I didn't create that. And that was Peter Drucker, who said, that is a big business guru, but very good guru. Yeah. But that

Christopher Wells 39:05

that drives the point home is that all of these other airlines, like in the case of Southwest could say, Okay, here's the game plan of how they do it. But execution is everything, right ideas, and wanting to do things and strategizing on papers, right? But how do you execute that? And how a company executes comes from their culture and the people that they bring in? Right, you can have the best game plan in the world. But if the culture is not there, and that's one thing, when I met on the second meeting, we had I said, we're doing tech, but I want to do tech with a hospitality frame of mind because nobody does it that way. And that's what I've done all my life. And he's like, I'm cool with that. And I agree with that. And our, you know, first employee is is an amazing tech person, like understands that but so focused on service and hospitality, and is a huge part of our success. But now that some of our users are coming back to us and saying, We love the interaction we have with you and your openness and Your willingness to do service. So you said Zappos, the shoes, but they're appreciated for the service. Yeah, that's something that I try to transpire in what we do. But I think it's such a, like you said a lot more people, more and more people are understanding it. But it's such a, a core to any brand that you look at that we love that we appreciate. Has that at the center of it, right?

Jim 40:21

Yep, exactly. Exactly. You said it. Yeah. I don't know that I come over the top with anything better. That's perfect.

Christopher Wells 40:26

Yep. Now we're moving to leadership that rocks because you said step one, leadership, step two, next year service, step three will be engagement. Leadership is obviously that's where a lot of culture starts from. Yeah, but but leadership is is is many things to many people. How do you explain it then get some, like, people are like, I love it. I've done a lot of leadership stuff. And currently, you know, with groups and workshops, and I always like to say, what is leadership for you? And you get a lot of explanation or a lot of people's perception of what it is. But I'm curious to know, in a few words, just to get going, what what is leadership for you?

Jim 41:10

Yeah, it's gonna be like culture. I think anybody that would give me a definition of culture, I will agree with, I just accept all of it, I put it in a big bucket. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a yes am person, I just know that the root, the real cause is really human behavior. So it's almost the same thing. When it comes to leadership, there's not going to be a definition, what I've decided is, if you want to have an awesome Rockstar company, if you want to get to iconic heights, you've got to implement some very fundamental basic leadership traits. And so I actually wrote this book for up and coming and new and maybe middle managers, that leadership level, I didn't write it for executives, it didn't write it for the entrepreneur, I hope they read it. And and she or he wants to put it out to their people. But as for people that as you know, there's a massive chasm sometimes between being a staff member, and becoming a manager or becoming a leader, all of a sudden you have responsibilities, you're managing other humans, you're managing a budget, your decision making has way more consequence, you've got to think on your feet super quick. And so I decided, the lane I'm gonna play in in this particular book is what are some things that I might be able to share with people some best practices that would help them amp their business up. So I'll start there, just say that's kind of the idea of this particular book, there might be a very cool epiphany moment for some people when they're reading through it, if they're a senior leader, they've been doing this for 3040 years, I'm not so sure, I think they might just need a swift kick in the butt. But if they look at and said, Geez, if I just implemented these 10 1215 things, I'd be in a much better place, or at least my people would, if I could get them to do it. That's the goal. So I want to be very clear. It's for new and up and coming leaders. That was the whole mindset for me.

Christopher Wells 42:52

That's amazing. And that's one thing, even if, I mean, if you're an employee going into management, you're you're recently got into management, I would strongly urge you to pick up the book. But if you're an experience, executive, don't underestimate that you've been there, but you forgot when you were there. So don't underestimate that your people that are going through that transition need help. One of the hardest things to do when you go from being you know, with your colleagues, you know, server to server and you become a manager or you go into management role is your credibility. A lot of people may question it, you may have the imposter syndrome. So, if you're an executive seeing this, and a lot of my consulting clients through the years have told me, Chris, you say the same things that I do. But when Daddy tells you to pick up your room, you don't listen. And then you come in and you say the same crap that I've been saying for five years, and they listen to you. Oh, Christopher said this, Christopher said that, and he hate me for it. But at least they listen to you. Yes. You're just saying what I've been saying, right? But when mommy when daddy or mommy says that they don't listen. So if you're an executive, have, you know, Jim's experience and his approach. And don't forget when you were at that level, and you would have needed that help establish your credibility, your confidence and going to that role? So

Jim 44:09

well, you make a great point, too. I mean, sometimes this is the reason why it's good to have an outside third party non threatening speaker like me or like you, because the executives, maybe the managers have been saying things over and over and over. Maybe it's not resonating with everybody, you bring somebody in who, although I try not to call myself an expert, I've got a lot of experience, I study this stuff, I write about it, I talk about it, like this is my job. It kind of makes a little bit easier for people to now accept it. And sometimes they're even looking at the CEO. They're like, geez, we should probably do this. And they're like, yes, we've been talking about this for 10 years. So it does help for me to come in and maybe just at least get that mindset in their head and then the managers, the leaders can come over the top later on.

Christopher Wells 44:50

Yep. Um, one of the great things too is how leaders approach their influence like I think John Maxwell was I love through the years and obviously that you know that you're one of the foremost authority. leadership. I think you'd explain it saying leadership is influence, like Indy take it to the barest thing. And I've always thought that's a great place to start because leadership can be negative, right? There's examples of negative leaders that have influenced times there's a 1000s of people, and there's positive ones, right? Without, you know, naming anybody. But, um, so there is an influence there. And I think when, when people will kind of grow into it, they, I see it a lot. And I don't know how you feel about that. But a lot of times people think being a manager are going to that leadership role is me telling people what to do. And obviously, there's different, you know, levels of perception of leadership, but but it's a lot more than that, right? Leaders, it's, how many followers do I have? And I hate that frame of that frame of mind, right? It's not about if people are following you, but it's more about how you and how do you, what are some of the maybe misconceptions that you've seen or about leadership, or maybe some of the better frame of works or better perceptions of what it is?

Jim 46:03

Yeah. So first off, I'm a little bit older than I look, I've been around for a while. And I remember back in the ad, so you can absolutely muscle the result, you know, you can manage the threats and punishment and fear. And I've worked for a couple bosses like that, right, the one that they did, and that's how they got results, and people were in fear of it, and they just stuck around to the job, you try and do that now with either a millennial or Gen Z now coming into the workforce, they'll laugh at you, and they'll just go somewhere else. Because if they're actually good if they're a rockstar rockstars can always get another gig, I don't care what the unemployment rate is. It's it's bold to me, if you're absolutely an awesome employee, you can always find another job, I got no problem with that. I am still blown away, that there are general managers, directors of operations that are in hospitality, that still have that mindset, I'm shocked that they still have a job because I just feel like they're going to run out of people because I just, I wouldn't be able to deal with it anymore, honestly. And so I think there's a different way to lead people. And it's, you know, you still got to bring the heavy stick at times, you still got to hold people accountable. But you can throw your arms around people you can love on the more you can show them the way you can communicate more you can educate and develop and grow them and get them to where they're promotable. And you know, every once well, they get a little bit off course, and you do some course correction, you coach you counsel, like that's the job now. So I'll tell you a quick story when I, when I did become a manager, so I was a, I was a host, like I said, I had that long hair back in the day, it was fun, it was cheeseburgers and rock and roll and traveling the world and whatever, and then all sudden, they give you some responsibility. So I never wanted to be a tipped employee, I didn't want to be a server or bartender and have my my life dictated by tips. I've said, Listen, I just want to be a well paid host, and put me up front, I'm gonna touch all 7000 people coming through there, and I'm gonna be having fun with people. And, you know, I'm gonna hand them off to the server, or the bartender or the retail sales associate or whatever. But I'm going to start them on their journey. So I'm going to create all these cool moments because me personally, and I'm probably like you, Chris, I am an experiential starved consumer, like I am on the hunt for people to do something different and exciting with me, versus treating me like a number. So that was sort of the role that I played in. So I had a lot of fun. I was doing contests, I was a pretty good trainer. But now to be a manager, especially when there's 500 employees on a floor at anytime, again, that's the exception to the rule. Everybody Orlando's a little bit different. But think about this. I made a cognizant, conscious decision that for the first six months of me being a manager, when I used to just be sitting there tables, these same employees that were my friends, I decided for six months, I'm not going to write anybody up for anything that I see, unless it was something that was terminable less, I had to ultimately fire somebody, but for the most part, let's say they're eating in the side station in front of guests, or they're chewing gum, or they're late or out of uniform or whatever. I would talk talk talk, but sometimes I would use language like come on, man, you're gonna get me in trouble. Like it was just enough that they knew that I had power. I had influence. But I was letting him slide. I was still one of the buddies and at some point, once I made that decision, like I'm gonna hold them accountable. It was so much easier. The conversation in month seven was Brother I hate this, but you knew we talked about it. Now I gotta write you up. You sort of backed me into a corner. And people now appreciate that and even with people that I've had to let go, which is the worst thing I can't stand taking somebody's job away from but there's some people that need that to happen for them to get better and for us to get better as well. I fired people before a no no lie. They have stood up and shaken my hand and said thank you so much for everything you did. You did the absolute best. I fired myself. That to me just blows my mind that people would feel like that when they're actually having a gig taken away. So there's just a different mentality now I think the greatest leaders I've ever known are the ones that were a little bit humble. They were they had some humility. Sometimes they didn't say very much at all, let's say in a meeting. But boy, when they spoke, their words resonated everybody paid attention. I like people that have a sense of urgency and attention to detail that work ethic, particularly with the Hard Rock brand. And I know everybody listening out there, I'm hoping that you have a couple people, at least one that you wish you could get into cloning, but you've got one that will move at blazing speed, not because he or she has to, because I want to the more of those people, you're going to be in a much better place. So I talked about these things. How can you be a Change Catalyst? How can you be both humble, but also bring the thunder at different times? How can you mentor other people? So I have a whole chapter dedicated to mentorship? Because I do believe now there's something like 70%. And by the way, Chris, you know, when we're doing interviews like this, and we start to share statistics, we make up stats like 84% of the time, you know, so call them

Christopher Wells 50:57

wells, wells, statistics, whenever even in our daily life when I come up with something wells, wells that are related somewhere, so I'm gonna

Jim 51:05

use that down the road. Yes, that's well, stat. Yeah, I've heard that it's like 70% of all CEOs, all executives and top person in Fortune 500. Companies today, have absolutely sworn that the only reason they got to where they are is because of a mentor. And so I talked about different types of mentors, that it could be some inside the company, some outside the company, it could be your spouse, could be a peer, even mentoring other people, I believe in reverse mentorship, that there's a young kid that I'm working with right now that I'm helping out. But I'm learning so much about a variety of things, including social media and some other stuff. I go, man that really helped me out. So, you know, again, without going into detail of the book, there's probably five or six main key points, that again, maybe you just haven't really thought about that much now that you've moved from being a staff member to a leader. And even if this is still, you know, you're in the middle leadership, you've been doing this for a few years, maybe you don't even have direct reports, that book that mentality is can be perfect for you,

Christopher Wells 52:02

I think there's some amazing value just in what you share. Now, it makes me want to read the book, I hope it makes you watching this one to read the book, the the transition, that's a couple of takeaways from what you just said, the transition from I just got in the role. Some people come in going, if I want to be credible, I gotta, you know, hit the hammer, I got into a position. I've done management before, but I walked into a management position with a little burger company, and it's got a big yellow M and the clown is, uh, you know, and got dropped, like parachuted in a store for McDonald's with over, you know, 100 employees and all that and, and I shut the hell up for two weeks, I listened. And I considered everybody a mentor, because there was employees there that had been there for years, even though they were just, you know, a suite manager, a floor manager, and they went to school, but they did a few shifts here and there, I'd say only because that was in their career. But you know, they did that what I studied, but I just watched the other leaders in that place and tried to learn from all of them. So that transition phase of No, you don't have to walk in and lay down the law on day one and try because that's too big of a change or that your your your colleagues and the people around you and like who the hell are you like even in that case, they didn't know me, but if you go in trying to, like, oh, you know, I'm going to take my place. So take time to get a feel for it and establish relationships and like you're like, some of these people like some of these guys, one of my best friends stilted as they was in that group when I got there in 2002. And I told him at one point, you're making my life hard because right now like I hate you don't make me regret being your friend at work, right? Because they are rules, you know, the rules, you know them and it's there. So there's that transition, give yourself some time to transition into that position and to get there. That's some really good stuff really. Life changing, like you said, like probably an epiphany for some people in their time flies by I knew you and I could probably do you know, 40 hours together. There's a million things I'd like to talk to you about. And we talked about the books. You also mentioned podcasts. Thoughts, that rock Yeah, with Brent Menswear. Tell us about brands quickly with Brent through your Yeah,

Jim 54:11

brand brands good friend of mine. We decided a few years ago that we were going to write a book called thoughts at rock we had some brand and Jim isms sort of sounds like some of your well stats, things that I would normally say on stage or just in my background, we said let's put that in a book. We want to do 365 of those. So you can have one each day and we were about halfway through and we just stopped and said, you know, let's let's put this on a bigger platform. Let's do a podcast and back then. So I'm going back three years, there were about 500,000 unique podcasts in the world than two years ago. There were 750,000. So in one year, it literally just jumped all the way up to a quarter million today, mostly because of the pandemic. Everybody wanted to start a podcast there's two, two and a half million unique Podcast. So we've been doing it for a while, we're lucky to be usually in the top 200 of our category. And we just have fun. It's called thoughts at Rock and we basically there is just a show.

Christopher Wells 55:11

That's good blurry there. You can you guys can go and check that this is on Apple's podcast, but I'm sure you guys on all the platforms out there we are

Jim 55:19

we are. And we really only asked one question, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? And because we only ask the one question and it sort of leads into whatever, we have great conversations with a lot of big name celebrities that we've been able to, to have walk in the door. So we love doing that. And it's a free weekly leadership thing. So if that's, again, especially for leadership, since we're talking about that you want something free and easy. And we'll have you on the show to Christopher that'd be great.

Christopher Wells 55:44

I would be honored and privileged to come and do that with you guys. I every time I go for podcast, I listened to way too many right now a lot of them are obviously business and startups what I'm doing, but I like to get hooked on one episode, so I'm gonna put you on the spot. If there was one episode, I think you guys are over 100 Now I just hit 100 Recently, I think right to hit Yeah. 100 and third just came out on Monday. What's your favorite either episode or one that you think like if people want to get hooked on thoughts that rock and they want to get a feel for what it is? Is there when you would you would send them through or just go with the latest one?

Jim 56:18

You know, I'd send them to to actually somebody who's on our team, one of our community manager her name's Katie, Katie blade on she's actually she's in the roller derby as well, former hard rocker young girl about half my age and she works with us. We had her on the show. And it's still one of the highest rated shows we've done because it's pretty raw and open. And she's all tattooed and pierced up and it's it's fun. But I would say for him from a leadership standpoint, we really liked our interview with Steve Cockrum, who is the founder, co founder of giant worldwide so they're huge from a leadership and a development standpoint. And he wrote a phenomenal book about the five voices and we actually he does some five voice work literally on the show. So you know, I could point to some of the big ones Soledad O'Brien was really good. The CNN anchors. You know, Scott Kelly, the astronaut. You know, there's there's others that maybe the bigger names would be interesting, but I would start with Steve Cockrum or Katie Those are great.

Christopher Wells 57:13

That's amazing. Thanks for pointing that out. I will definitely go and get that done. Mentioning leadership that rocks coming out on May 18. You can pre order it now on Amazon is Amazon the best place for us to pick it up?

Jim 57:25

You know probably you could go get it Barnes and Noble and and Books a Million as well online. I don't know if it's on the Indigo in Canada yet. But Amazon is probably the best. And I can track all those analytics and we'll see how we are. But thank you for saying that. I appreciate

Christopher Wells 57:37

I wish you a ton of success with the book. I'm not worried you are the kind of guy that goes and get the success that you want. And I'm sure you can't wait to hit the road. Thank you so much for doing this with us today. An honor and a privilege to have you amazing insight information in there. Love your energy. Love what you're doing. I wish you continued success to everybody watching. We'll be doing another episode very shortly. We've got some really more fun guests coming but that Jim, thanks for coming. Thanks for doing this and everyone have a great one.

Jim 58:05

My pleasure. Thanks, Chris Rock on.
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